Recently I have been discussing the Bible with a group of people who believe that Jesus was created and is not divine as God the father is. Here are a few points that might help in a discussion:
First, the only evidence that they present to suggest that Jesus is created is that he is called the "Son of God" (son must be born or created from father) and the fact that he is called the firstborn of creation (Col. 1.15) and the beginning of creation (Rev. 3.14). In addition, some suggest that Proverbs 8.22 is refering to Jesus, but it is really refering to wisdom (8.12, note the feminine tense).
How literal are "son" and "firstborn" to be interpreted? Israel is called the firstborn son of God (Ex. 4.22). Yet, they were the only child of God. How can an only child be the firstborn? This logic also applies to God's only son Jesus. Paul goes on to say in Col. 1.16 that All things were created by and through Jesus. If all things have been created by Jesus (Jn. 1.3), how could he have been created and where do the scriptures say that he was created? Of course, the NWT adds the word 'all "other" things were created...' John did us a great service in Rev. 3.14 by using the word 'arche' (beginning) because it means the "originator" or "ruler." A little word study on 'arche' puts this argument to rest.
Let's play offense for a moment (other than the John 1.1 debate). God tells Moses that his name is I AM in Ex. 3.14-15. Jesus also calls himself I AM in John 8.58. The NWT translates John 8.58 "I have been" so they say that Jesus is not claiming to be God. If Jesus is not claiming to be YHWH, why then do the Jews seek to stone him in 8.59?
When Jesus is being tempted in Matthew 4.7, he quotes Deut. 6.16 to tell Satan, "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test" Who is being tempted? Jesus. Jesus says that temptation of him is temptation of YHWH. Thus, Jesus equates himself with YHWH. If Jesus is not suggesting that he is the same as YHWH, then what point was he trying to make by quoting Deut. 6.16?
Finally, the NWT translates kurios ("Lord") as Jehovah 237 times in the NT. When kurios applies to Jesus it is not translated 'Jehovah.' How is one to determine whether it is the genreal word 'Lord' or Jehovah since the word is kurios? This proves that the NWT is biased and has left the role of translator and entered the role of a commentator.
The Bible is very clear that Jesus was not created and is thus God; as is the Father and the Spirit. Claiming that Jesus is not God is not only heresy, it will have terrible consequences for your future.
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Greetings Andy Walker
Firstly, let me state
I am not a JW!
Concerning Col 1.16, this is a translation issue.
The first word "by" ought to be translated "in" to correspond to the Greek word "en".
All things were created in and through
(Gk dia) Jesus.
Secondly the context of Colossians Ch. 1 isn't about the Genesis creation at all; the context, the "all things", is about the new creation i.e. the future Coming Kingdom of GOD; hence, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers.
Hence:
RSV for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
ASV for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
John 1.1-3 isn't speaking about Jesus at all, he isn't mentioned!
John 1.1-3 is about GOD's word.
All things came into existence by GOD's word.
Colin Brown of Fuller Seminary summed this misconception nicely when he said:
"It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John's Gospel to read it as if it said: 'In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God' (John 1:1). What has happened here is the substitution of Son for Word (Greek logos), and thereby the Son is made a member of the Godhead which existed from the beginning."
In verse 14, it states that GOD's word became flesh, resulting in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
Therefore, the word/logos of John 1.1-3 becomes Jesus; Jesus was the logos become flesh, not the logos as such.
For more info,
I recommend this video:
The Human Jesus
Concerning John 8.58 ...
GOD's name isn't "I AM"
GOD's name is YHWH
The "I AM" in Exo 3.14 is a descriptive designation of YHWH.
And there is absolutely no connection between Exo 3.14 and John 8.58 at all!
This can be verified by comparing John 8.58 with the LXX text of Exo 3.14.
Why then do the Jews seek to stone him in 8.59?
Answer: (John 8:53) Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Seeing that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, and being the Messiah,
he is indeed greater than Abraham & all the prophets;
therefore, in the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, The Messiah is indeed before Abraham, and Abraham indeed rejoiced to see the day of the Messiah, which he saw by faith (cp. Heb 11.13).
This Messianic claim coming at the end of a series of stinging rebukes in John Chapter 8, was finally 'the straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak!
Jesus of Nazareth was claiming to be greater than their father Abraham. The Jews had enough, they wanted to stone him.
The aforementioned video goes into more detail concerning John 8.58.
"You shall not put the LORD your God to the test" Who is being tempted, you ask?
Look at the context:
(Mat 4:5-6) Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He ...
[He who? YHWH GOD!! Psa 91.9] ... shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
By jumping, Jesus the Son of GOD, would be tempting the ONE GOD, his Father to intervene and save him, whether through angelic means or otherwise! Hence Christ's response in verse 7.
Again, Andy, I encourage you to view the video at:
The Human Jesus
Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you in your quest for truth.
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
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